A universal superstar, Glen Campbell rocked the country

(No. 38 in a continuing series on artists who should be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, but are not)

By Phill Marder

This blog started in September, but my first article on who belongs in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame actually ran in Goldmine over 10 years ago. Since that time, some from my original list were inducted and some who became eligible since have been added.

So my basic list has been in existence for quite some time. What I’m trying to tell you is that this week’s choice has been on that list since the beginning. I’ve passed him by until now because, for me, writing about him is a daunting assignment. But the recent sad news concerning him forced me to finally give it a shot. He has accomplished so much, it is ridiculous to try to summarize it, particularly in one blog entry. But I’m going to attempt it with the hope that maybe some of those responsible for nominating Hall of Fame candidates will delve a little deeper into his qualifications and make an intelligent choice.

So without further ado, let me present for your consideration – and the consideration of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame nominating committee – another musical giant thus far passed over.

I give you Glen Campbell.

Campbell recently turned 75 and has a new album “Ghost On The Canvas” due August 30, with a tour to follow. Unfortunately, it will be his final tour as he recently has been diagnosed with the early stages of Alzheimer’s.

One of Rock’s great guitarists, Campbell moved to Los Angeles in his early 20s and got his first real taste of notoriety with the Champs, who had recorded the Rock classic “Tequila” a couple years earlier. As his reputation spread, he became a member of the famous “Wrecking Crew” studio group that included drummer Hal Blaine and keyboardist Leon Russell, both members of the Hall of Fame, Tommy Tedesco, Al Casey and Carol Kaye. Of all the “Wrecking Crew” members, Campbell went on to have the most distinguished career, backing the likes of Elvis, Ricky Nelson, Bobby Darin, the Association, the Monkees, the Mamas & Papas and many more.

He filled in on bass and vocals with the Beach Boys when Brian Wilson first became incapacitated and sang on a minor 1967 hit by the group Sagittarius and on a 1964 top 10 record “Little Honda” by the Hondells.

Campbell really started opening eyes (and ears) when he began making regular appearances on “Shindig,” the weekly Rock show that had a two-year run with regulars including Russell, Darlene Love, Delaney Bramlett, Billy Preston and The Righteous Brothers. Campbell got to show off his playing prowess, but he also stunned audiences who were unaware of his vocal abilities.

After minimal success as a solo artist, Campbell finally made headway with his 1967 recording of John Hartford’s “Gentle On My Mind,” which earned Campbell Grammys for Best Country & Western solo performance by a male and Best Country Recording. But Campbell also won another two Grammys the same year for “By The Time I Get To Phoenix,” which carried off the Best Vocal Performance by a male and Best Contemporary Male Solo Vocal Performance, leaving no doubt Campbell had arrived.

 The next year, Campbell’s “By The Time I Get To Phoenix” album was given the Grammy for Album of the Year. The above two singles plus “Wichita Lineman” have all been awarded Grammy Hall of Fame status as well. The latter hit No. 3 and made the list of top 200 singles of all time in a 2004 list compiled by Rolling Stone. English journalist Stuart Maconie called it “the greatest pop song ever composed.” Of course, Campbell just recorded it. The tune was written by Jimmy Webb, who also composed “Phoenix,” but, though recorded by many, “Wichita Lineman” generally is associated with Campbell as is another Webb composition, “Galveston,” which hit No. 4 for Campbell in 1969. Thought to be a protest against the Vietnam War, Webb later revealed he actually had the Spanish-American War in mind when he wrote it.

Campbell also was busy revisiting early Rock chestnuts, doing covers of Jack Scott’s “Burning Bridges,” Roy Orbison’s “Only The Lonely” and “Dream Baby,” Dorsey Burnette’s “Hey Little One,” The Everly Brothers’ “Let It Be Me” and “All I Have To Do Is Dream” and Roger Miller’s “Little Green Apples” with Bobbie Gentry, and Conway Twitty’s “It’s Only Make Believe” and made them hits all over again.

But his biggest successes didn’t come until the mid to late ‘70s when he hit No. 1 with “Rhinestone Cowboy” and “Southern Nights.” All the while, his prolific output remained sprinkled with Rock classics.

Campbell also was a constant chart presence in the United Kingdom with eight top 40 singles, “Honey Come Back” and “It’s Only Make Believe” each peaking at No. 4 and six top 40 albums, “20 Golden Greats” topping the UK chart in 1971.

Detractors may complain that Campbell was a Country artist, therefore he shouldn’t be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. But, as noted, much of his recorded output focused on Rock & Roll classics. And Country Music played just as important, or maybe even a more important role in the formation of Rock & Roll than did the more heralded blues. Many Country stars already are entrenched in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, those being Chet Atkins, Bob Wills & His Texas Playboys, Johnny Cash, Floyd Cramer, The Everly Brothers, Wanda Jackson, Brenda Lee, Carl Perkins, Jimmie Rodgers, and the greatest Country star of all, Hank Williams.

Thankfully, Campbell was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in 2005. But in 2007 he also was inducted into the Musicians’ Hall of Fame as a member of Rock’s most notorious studio band, The Wrecking Crew. And in 2008, Q Magazine, which presents highly regarded music awards for Britain, presented Campbell with the Q Legend Award.

Put it all together, and add the page after page of accomplishments not noted here (50 years in the business, over 70 albums, his own television series in addition to his work on “Shindig,” major roles in several motion pictures, including the original “True Grit,”) and you should come to just one conclusion…Glen Campbell belongs in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

SANTA MONICA, Calif. — The 53rd Annual GRAMMY® Awards Pre-Telecast Ceremony will take place on Sunday, Feb. 13 from 1 – 4 p.m. PT at the Los Angeles Convention Center and will be streamed live internationally on www.grammy.com/live and www.youtube.com/thegrammys beginning at 1 p.m. PT. Well-attended by nominees and industry VIPs, the star-studded ceremony with be co-hosted by current GRAMMY nominees Bobby McFerrin and Esperanza Spalding, and will feature performances by nominees including Afro-Colombian hip hop trio ChocQuibTown, blues musician Buddy Guy, singer/songwriter Cyndi Lauper, American roots interpreter Maria Muldaur, contemporary blues artist Kenny Wayne Shepherd, trombone and trumpet player Trombone Shorty, legendary gospel singer Mavis Staples, jazz musician Kirk Whalum, and R&B singer/songwriter Betty Wright. Presenting the first GRAMMY Awards of the night in 98 categories will be current nominees Laurie Anderson, Sara Bareilles, BT, Kathy Griffin, and Wayne Wallace. The live stream of the Pre-Telecast will remain on GRAMMY.com as video on demand for 30 days following the event. Following the Pre-Telecast Ceremony, the 53rd Annual GRAMMY Awards will be broadcast live on the CBS Television Network from 8 – 11:30 p.m ET/PT. For GRAMMY coverage, updates and breaking news, please visit The Recording Academy®’s social networks on Facebook and Twitter: www.facebook.com/thegrammys and www.twitter.com/thegrammys.

Co-hosts McFerrin and Spalding each have one nomination: McFerrin for Best Classical Crossover Album for Vocabularies, and Spalding for Best New Artist.

Performers ChocQuibTown, Guy, Lauper, Muldaur, Shepherd, Staples, Trombone Shorty and Wright each have one nod: ChocQuibTown for Best Latin Rock, Alternative Or Urban Album for Oro; Guy for Best Contemporary Blues Album for Living Proof; Lauper for Best Traditional Blues Album for Memphis Blues; Muldaur for Best Traditional Folk Album for Maria Muldaur & Her Garden Of Joy; Shepherd for Best Contemporary Blues Album for Live! In Chicago (Kenny Wayne Shepherd Band Featuring Hubert Sumlin, Wille “Big Eyes” Smith, Bryan Lee, and Buddy Flett); Staples for Best Americana Album for You Are Not Alone; Trombone Shorty for Best Contemporary Jazz Album for Backatown; and Wright for Best Traditional R&B Vocal Performance for “Go.” Whalum has three nominations: Best Pop Instrumental Album for Everything Is Everything: The Music Of Donny Hathaway; Best Gospel Performance for “He’s Been Just That Good” (with Lalah Hathaway) and Best Gospel Song for “It’s What I Do” (with Jerry Peters).

Presenters Anderson, Bareilles, BT, Griffin, and Wallace each have one nomination: Anderson for Best Pop Instrumental Performance for “Flow”; Bareilles for Best Female Pop Vocal Performance for “King Of Anything”; BT for Best Electronic/Dance Album for These Hopeful Machines; Griffin for Best Comedy Album for Kathy Griffin Does The Bible Belt; and Wallace for Best Latin Jazz Album for ¡Bien Bien! (Wayne Wallace Latin Jazz Quintet).

GLORIA JONES was one of the first female writers and producers for Motown. Photo courtesy Jim Britt

By Jamie Brotherton

Once dubbed the Northern Queen of Soul, Gloria Jones is a standout artist. This magnetic performer with a dynamic voice has maintained a steady career spanning more than 40 years in gospel, Northern Soul, R&B and pop.

Jones also originated the song, “Tainted Love” in 1964, which the synth duo Soft Cell later covered in 1982 — and whose version zoomed up various Billboard charts both in 1982 and 1999.

Jones was one of the first female writers and producers for Motown, alongside Pam Sawyer. She wrote and produced for acts including the Jackson 5, The Supremes and The Commodores. “If I Were Your Woman,” the song Jones wrote for Gladys Knight & the Pips, was nominated for a Grammy in 1971.

Jones also enjoyed an association with the iconic Marc Bolan and his hit band, T. Rex (1973-1977), in which she sang backup vocals and collaborated with Bolan on numerous recordings. Offstage, Jones and Bolan fell in love, and she became the mother of his Bolan’s only child.

Today, Jones remains a force in the music industry. She has served as musical supervisor for films and re-released her 1973 album “Share My Love” in 2009. She currently is building the Marc Bolan School of Music and Film in Sierra Leone, Africa, with their son, artist Rolan Bolan.

How did you begin your music career?
Gloria Jones: I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, for the first seven years, and my Uncle Bob was my baby sitter and a beautiful jazz musician; he used to rehearse in my father’s church. When I was a little girl, he was practicing on his saxophone, and I started playing on the chair as if it were a piano.

Then at the age of 4, my dad asked if I would sing a solo at church. They thought it was just going to be like a little child getting up there; instead it was really emotional, very similar to that of Michael Jackson, having that natural ability. I never knew this until my uncle shared this with me a few years ago.

At age 14, I was with a gospel group for four years, The Cogic Singers, that I formed with Frankie Karhl and Billy Preston. I remember when Billy returned from the Little Richard tour in Germany and had met The Beatles, who were going under another name at the time. He kept talking about this group and said, ‘They are going to be so big.’

To be honest, we were humble, churchgoing, gospel-singing kids. Our life was going to gospel programs, buying a hamburger and having a malt. That was really the sincerity that we took with us in the record industry.

How did you begin your association with Motown?
Jones: Hal Davis discovered us at the church. I would say he was the original sound for Michael Jackson, by teaching him how to present the song with the inflections; he really helped him to become a recording artist. Brenda Holloway, her sister and I started doing background sessions, and we had a really unique sound that was sort of crossing over into the rock world; it brought attention to Hal Davis, and he introduced me to Ed Cobb.

I thought I was signing with Motown, but they really weren’t into that hard Gospel sound; it was more The Supremes. Even though I was with Cobb, I was still doing background work for Motown, and then I began writing with Pam Sawyer. That is how I was able to get the contract to become a songwriter and producer for Motown.

What was your experience at Motown and to work with luminaries as Berry Gordy and The Jacksons, etc.?
Jones: When we were writing at Motown, it was about the best man winning, and Mr. Gordy would say, “The song that you wrote — is someone going to buy a sandwich or are they going to buy your record?” He wanted you to hit the top. I have to tell you, to have been able to be under such a wonderful person, someone who actually saw my gifts as a songwriter and who gave me the opportunity and chance, because here I am, a young girl at 21, 22 years old, and you’re on the elevator and you’re hearing your music on Muzak — where else would that happen? Mr. Gordy is the kindest, most humble and creative person. He loves the art, and he enjoyed young people. He wasn’t that much older than us, but he enjoyed young people and he loved seeing us create and work at the piano. He is a true artist himself.

Motown was just a wonderful atmosphere. When I look back on it, we were all young. Michael Jackson was only 11, but he was telling everyone he was 8. I admired Mr. and Mrs. Jackson so much, because they trusted us and let us come into their home to work with their sons, who are talented musicians.

When Michael recorded “2-4-6-8” he had those beautiful, big eyes that he gave to the world, but he was just a little boy out there playing in the hallway. We were going over the lyrics with him, but he just couldn’t wait to play. Since Pam and I were both young mothers, we knew how to balance, and he had fun with us. We were like, ‘OK, Michael, just give us three more lines, and then after that, you can go and run, do whatever you want to do.’

We would go to their house to present our songs, and Michael was so mischievous. He loved to tease Pam, and she used to tell me, ‘Michael is so cheeky.’ We really had fun and appreciated the whole family.

by Pat Prince

John Lydon is taking Public Image Ltd (PiL) on the road for the first time in many years. Although it has been eighteen years since PiL last toured America, John Lydon does not want to call it a “reunion” for the group. In Lydon’s point of view, PiL never broke up. The band is simply an “ongoing process.”

Strangely enough, on the eve of PiL’s tour, Malcolm McLaren, the Sex Pistols former manager, died of mesothelioma. Closely entwined to McLaren in rock history, Lydon singled McLaren out as a consummate entertainer who will be missed. In the spirit of McLaren, the show must go on and flourish.

PiL’s North American tour began at Coachella (Valley Music & Arts Festival) on April 16th. With Lu Edmonds on guitar, Bruce Smith on drums and Scott Firth on bass, Lydon is following up more than a month of American shows with a short European tour.

After touring, the band is looking to re-enter the studio for the first time since 1992′s “That What Is Not.” Without a record company’s support, however, financing PiL has been tricky. In 2008, the U.K. press labeled Lydon a sellout for being in Country Life Butter commercials. Country Life Butter is a very Anglo product, but it was the money from those commercials that helped finance PiL’s resurgence.

Goldmine spoke to Lydon just before PiL embarked on their North American tour. Many seem to be intimidated by Lydon’s presence and reputation. Turns out, Lydon is more human than many. Yes, he’s an awfully intense person but he may not be the bully you think he is.

Are you excited about this North American tour?
John Lydon: Yeah, but it makes me nervous, cause I always want to do the best I can. I’m a worrier by nature. And it’s such a financial burden. Lack of record company activity, per usual – it’s beginning to sound like a very old banjo I’m playing, but it would be nice if the label that apparently wants to make money from me would show some interest.

It’s a big way to kick off the tour, with Coachella.
Lydon: Yeah, but, I mean, there’s the point. There’s never been a problem between me and an audience, it’s just the record company in between, completely not understanding.

Yeah, well, the way the music industry is nowadays …
Lydon: Well, they can’t say I haven’t warned them. No, for thirty years I’ve been telling them they’re all a bunch of silly sausages and … they are. (laughs)

Back to Coachella … I’ve heard you didn’t like playing these festivals.
Lydon: Sometimes not. Sometimes they’re brilliant. It all depends on the nervous condition I’m in beforehand. (laughs) Because I am a human being.

I always loved the atmosphere of festivals. You know, the original festivals, as they used to be, some forty years ago, they were entirely different events. These days they seem very corporate led. And you can’t indeed use the toilet without a credit card. The only toilets you’ll find empty and clean are the Mens at the Lilith Festival. (laughs)

I didn’t know PiL played American Bandstand once. What was that like?
Lydon: Uh, hilarious. Because they expected us to mime. And there we are, we pull up, and we are expected to perform live and, ‘No, no, no, no.’ So, we mimed in the most inappropriate way possible.

That was a weird experience, I’m sure.
Lydon: No, we absolutely had fun, like not bothering with it at all. We just ran all over the studio. But, apparently, Dick Clark really liked it. So, he put us in his top 20 all-time performers. Even though we didn’t perform. (laughs) Well, we did, but not according to their plan.

Did you get to meet Dick Clark?
Lydon: Yeah.

How was he? Was he a good guy?
Lydon: Well, he picked a decent wig that night. He had worse because I’d seen a room full of them. Believe me, some of those were beavers. (laughs) At least, he’s a good-enough person. He gave us a chance. He knew, you know, what Mr. Rotten might be capable of. And I wasn’t there to wreck anything. But I have to do things my way, which I think is the proper way. And I can’t stand there, faking singing, it’s impossible to me. You know, throw the microphone away and get on with it.

So, it’s been eighteen years since you’ve last toured as PiL.
Lydon: It doesn’t seem like that, even though many adverse situations cropped up, hindering me from keeping PiL together. I had kept myself busy, and I really like the work I’ve been doing.

I always thought there was going to be a PiL reunion. Sometimes the press made it sound like ‘that’s it’ for PiL.
Lydon: They shouldn’t talk like that. They shouldn’t make assumptions that things broke up, fell apart, ‘that’s it,’ and reformed. It’s not like that. PiL is an ongoing process. Our biggest problem has always been finance. Without the record company’s support, it’s impossible to keep a band together. How you gonna finance it? You know, I’ve gone to Tampax. They’re not interested.

I think this was after the Sex Pistols reunion …
Lydon: No. I wouldn’t say ‘reunion’ there either.

Right. Or, as it was labeled.
Lydon: Yeah. The band (Sex Pistols) fell apart due to various, erroneous, managerial manipulations, and we decided to continue it in a proper true way. With a sense of respect towards each other.

Do you find you have to get into a different state of mind, emotionally, switching from the Sex Pistols to PiL?
Lydon: Yes. That’s not impossible for me. Although, yes, it is yin and yang, left hand and right hand, and two bands in your brain at the same time, but one led into the other. The Pistols was my beginnings in music and from that I’ve learned what I’m able to do what I do today. So I am completely — always — eternally grateful to that band. They mean the world to me. It’s truly an amazing inheritance.

I look forward to seeing PiL. I never got a chance to see PiL live, so…
Lydon: Oh, well, Wipee! Because, to my mind, this is the best PiL format ever. Ever. Finally being able to really zoom in to what matters. Egotists and the like, and the drug-takers, have all been well and truly eliminated. You know, the people that tend to drag you back in for selfish reasons, we no longer require them.

I’ve heard you say that one thing you desire now is a stable line-up.
Lydon: We’re almost psychically in-tune with each other. It’s quite brilliant the places we can go musically, live. And the absolute ability to be able to improvise and take the song into something completely, strangely different. Yet, always enjoyably return to the original refrain. The chance to be doing that live is an amazing thing, and you need people you can truly, truly trust to do that with. And people you generally like and love and respect. And that’s how it really is. And the new bass player, Scott, he’s molded into us so instantly well. He’s just a genuine person. He loves his family. Loves his kids. These are people I like. I don’t like tortured drug addicts.

Plus, you’ve been through all that.
Lydon: Yeah, and it’s appalling, It’s really just a cover-up for low self-esteem, all that self-indulgence. There’s nothing brave in being a junkie. And certainly nothing to be respected. It actually shows an enormous weakness of personalty. A cop out. I mean, for me, drugs are recreational. They are not a predominant factor. Just like a bottle of beer. I like it to be there when I want it.

Are you going to re-enter the studio?
Lydon: Yeah, yeah. That is the point of this. To raise enough money to be able to get ourselves into a recording situation. Luckily, there have been a few new offers from record labels, definitely more than interested. There are people who want to do a documentary on this, and that all helps. So I’ll get rid of those sad sack c***s that have been bothering me for thirty years. (laughs)

There was an unfortunate aspect that occurred in the British press last year, to the opening of this tour. One of them was this: Virgin decided to re-release “Metal Box” without any words to us, whatsoever. While we were planning this tour, they’d shown no interest in it at all. And then a certain journalist picked up on that and said that this tour was gonna be all about doing the “Metal Box.” And we would be calling it the Metal Box tour. All completely erroneous. And it caused all kinds of problems. And then having to discuss issues with former members. And having to put up with their egos and arrogance about it. And people telling me what’s what in PiL, it was unbearable.

The British press, they can be something else.
Lydon: If they could find a way to murder you, they’d happily go to it

They often paint you as this undesirable bully but your lyrics in PiL are anti-bully.
Lydon: Yeah, I know. ‘Take the shit outta your ears,’ you know.

And people who don’t know you … they expect you to be a certain way.
Lydon: And they don’t want to either. I mean, I moved Public Image to America very, very early on. Because we couldn’t get any venues in Britain or Europe. Nowhere would let us play. Couldn’t get record company interest, so I moved to the States. Well, the result of that was the British media deciding I was a sellout. And resented me for allegedly becoming an American — which on reading I thought ‘What a good idea!’ And here I am twenty-five years later, proud to be an American. But if that is to be the reason to hate me and still carry on that festering spite, you know … I’m quite happy.

Don’t get me wrong, the American press can be pretty bad, too.
Lydon: Oh, they can. But I’ve been always given a fairer crack of the whip here. And American audiences are far more open to something new and individual than you could ever achieve in England. It’s quite strange. You would think it would be the other way around. But because you’ve got this media spite — which, of course, is financed by record companies — it’s impossible to come out of it unscathed.

For my mind, too, the more and more energy they spend trying to wreck my life, and my career, and my good name, the more and more intriguing it becomes.

And they (the British press) dig up the most trivial stuff, whether it be this Country Life Butter thing … things they keep going on and on about.
Lydon: Yeah, and guess what? That money (from Country Life Butter) is what’s reformed PiL. For want of a better word, reformed. You know, where am I supposed to get my finances from? And, on top of that, I was promoting, absolutely British product, which seems very unfashionable for the socialists over there at the moment. It’s so ludicrous, and they don’t sense of irony and true anarchy in promoting such a politically incorrect product as butter by Johnny Rotten. You should be on the floor dying of laughter. That’s a coup d’état, surely.

That’s a great way to look at it. (laughs)
Lydon: That’s how I did. I jumped in to the prospect of that project because of those amazingly complicated situations involved in it. And, well, there you go. The utterly humorless decided to have another point of view on it. But at least they do have a point of view on me.

They do follow you quite often.
Lydon: Well, they should because I led the charge in music for so long.

Yeah, but I mean, for the wrong reasons sometimes.
Lydon: Well, that’s jealousy, you see. Shoot the messenger, I suppose, is the attitude. It’s such a shame that you have to explain everything. Sometimes people should shut up talking and start listening.

In American politics, it’s the same thing. As I’m sure you’ve witnessed …
Lydon: It’s hurts me a lot to see that. To see Republicans left with the only option they have, is to divide a nation. The bitterness and lying and hate, it’s so self-condemning.

It goes back to the bullying part.
Lydon: Yes, it does, but this reflects very poorly on a political party. All around the world are watching. And they are not impressed.

Are British politics as nasty?
Lydon: They can be witty. But there’s never a viciousness. And there’s never an implication of violence in the language. Alright, because that would be completely unacceptable. I’m just a lousy old pop star, me, apparently, but if I’m accused of inciting a riot, that’s a major thing for me. Yet, as a politician, that’s exactly what some of these fellas are up to. And I expect the same law for me as them. That’s why I live here. And if they want to take bullying out of schools they need to take it out of Congress first. (laughs)

I read a great quote where you said Miles Davis commented that you sang like he played the trumpet. To me, that is very accurate.
Lydon: I love “Bitches Brew,” it’s one of my favorite records and when he walked into the studio (for “Album”) and stood behind me and started blowing his trumpet it was extremely off-putting. It would be nice to have had him on that record but we were doing the same lines. And that’s when he said that. And I don’t analyze myself quite that way.

I regard myself as a folk musician. And I regard jazz as folk music, too, just as much as a ballad from 15th century Ireland. And what I mean by folk is that what I sing is from the heart and soul. I’m not trying to imitate any other genre or style of singing. I’m singing as I feel it. I’m trying to be as truthful to myself as I possibly can. And hopefully that communicates to others. Through quite a lot of pain. It doesn’t come ways but you have to find your own voice in the world like you have to find your own way. And it’s a shame that music has that potential but so many bands clutter it up, with inadequate copyist versions of things. I’ve always hated genre hoppers. Ones that revise something from the past, it’s all so easily set for them. They grab the uniform and the clothes of that period and they think that will do it. And it’s not right. Each generation has to represent itself. And each individual has to completely represent him or her self.

The question is, is originality dead in rock and roll?
Lydon: No, not at all. There’s just an awful lot of the other stuff, which I suppose there always will be. Not everyone’s cut out to do what I do. I mean, I’d like to paint but I know I’m nowhere near as good enough. That’s not my true form of expression.

Speaking of  “Album,” there were a lot interesting guest appearances on there. The most interesting one was Steve Vai.
Lydon: It wasn’t so much guest appearances as people who wanted to work with me. And I thought it was a most excellent record. Love it to death. And I always wanted the song “Rise” to be monumental because that’s how I wrote it and felt it, and I think we achieved that.

I was just going to bring up that song — and it’s interesting what you said before about folk music and it’s meaning. That song and it’s phrase “anger is an energy” … you sang it like a mantra. That statement has a sort of philosophical beauty to it. When you think about anger you can often think about violence but this expressed something different and maybe you want to elaborate on that?
Lydon: Well, that’s definitely giving a nod and a wink to my Pistols days which far-too-easily misinterpreted punk into being a violent statement. Which it never was. Not for me. Many of the punk wannabe bands that followed on after, quickly went for the easy option of violence and negative imagery and, you know, back to the silly cliches of skulls and crossbones. And that’s never what the Pistols were. And, yes, “Rise” is a true folk song. And deeply felt, that I do not like to see people punished or tortured or locked up.

Do you still listen to the old punk — the ’70s punk?
Lydon: Begrudgingly, from time to time, yes, of course. There were some stunning bands that came out. It was a wonderful time. We gave inspiration to so many people to just do it yourself. Unfortunately, a lot of the bands tended to narrow it down to a studded leather jacket and spiky hair. And that became a cliche.

I recently saw the Joe Strummer documentary, “The Future is Unwritten.” That was a great slice of that time. I don’t know if you had a chance to see it?
Lydon: Yeah, what I didn’t like about it was that it came across as slightly dirty. I got the vibe off it that those type of people didn’t wash much. (laughs) And being grimy for the sake of it, like that mattered. In Pistols, or me in PiL, the image is transient. It doesn’t matter what I’m wearing. And I have the freedom to wear what ever style of clothing when and where I want to.

I can see the movie coming off that way, with the squatting and all …
Lydon: Yeah, so for me, a trifle false. Because Joe Strummer came from, like, wealthy parents. So don’t be playing my working class roots on me like that. I truly do come from that. And it bugs me when they’re trying to use that as some kind of edge to their career. And it became appalling with Joe. And God bless him, he’s dead, and I never speak ill of the dead. But to be running around screaming ‘class war’ and ‘kill the rich,’ while living in one of the wealthiest areas of London, struck me as a little odd. You know, and bragging about taking the bus home. Well, ‘that’s fine, Joe, but the eight million pounds mansion you live in. (laughs) You know, get a cab. Employ someone. Put some money back into the system.’

I just have that common sense approach to life.

Looking back, what’s your favorite PiL moment?
Lydon: There are so many but probably the best moment is yet to come. I’m not being coy there. I actually feel that. And I genuinely feel fifty years young and I can’t wait for the next. I’ve always said this but one of the most foolish lines in rock written was by Pete Townshend, that ‘I hope I die before I get old.’ In many ways, that line helped me, when I was very, very young. I thought that was the most foolish thing. And it’s proved to be true. Because for me, every day I learn something new. And I feel a better person for it.

Townshend was, however, one of the first rock musicians to actually say something.
Lydon: No, I’m in full agreement. I get on with Pete extremely well. I mean, he writes these things so that they can be debated, so I’m not pulling issues with him. It’s a good bowl of contention we have. In the most joyous way. Believe me, there’s been much I’ve said and done to annoy him. (laughs)

Well, there still is a lot of time left.
Lydon: Yeah, there is. All this, you have to do it by twenty one, is such a pile of nonsense. At twenty one, I now know looking back, there were things that I didn’t know then that I most definitely could have made use of. But I think the point being, at twenty one, your brain is not developed enough to be that smart.

Not enough experience.
Lydon: Not enough experience. To ignore experience and despise old age is the most ridiculous thing that I recommend every teenager do. Because without doing that you won’t fully be able to grasp the concept at a later age. And what it does, is it brings you humiliation. And we all need a little bit of humility every now and again. And that’s what I do in songs, really. It’s all self-analytical, a huge bunch of the time. And very self-effacing. And that can be very vital. It’s kind of a cleansing of the head. You have to be able to look at yourself accurately and see what is going wrong. It’s enormously painful but the rewards, coming out the other side, knowing you can be better, it’s infinite. I’m far from a perfect person, but I’m damn well gonna give it a good go.

When it’s all said in done, would you be comfortable being known in the mainstream as the singer of the Sex Pistols?
Lydon: Oh, that’s not my ambition. No. I’m not looking for a chair position and I certainly don’t want no Grammy. Or the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, thank you. I think those institutions are negligent towards music. Well, listen, I come from a band that is infamous. I mean right from the outset. Once you realize early on in your youth that fame is a fickle companion, you’re a lot better off for the rest of your life. So I’m in no need to strive that or crave indulgence from audiences. That’s not what I do this for.

You never know. PiL might be inducted into the Hall of Fame one day.
Well then, that Rock and Roll Hall place doesn’t really learn, does it?